Varna cesta - brez bitumna

[klimbra]

Natas jest se strinjam s tabo, ker se mi zdi, da je gladek asfalt bolj nevaren, kot pa kakšne zalivke..

čudno se mi zdi, da so v stražišču (nekaj km iz kranja) v okolici šole postavili svinjsko gladek asfalt, ampak res svinjsko gladek.... pa ravno tam kjer je zavorna pot najpomembnejša....

in pol pomisli, da se peljes, lahko tudi z avtom in da dežuje in ti potem skoči otrok na cesto se boš ustavil par metrov kasneje, pa čeprav si peljal po omejitvi...

to pa lahko koga že stane življenje...

tko jest gledam na to in se sprašujem, zakaj gladek asfalt - je morda cenejši od grobega???

To moram pa videt........imam občutek,da je "SVINSKO GLADEK" zaradi vsebnosti materialov.V SLO je predpis,da se na cesti višje kategorije uporablja na območju kjer je večja nevarnost nenadnega zaviranja 100% eruptivni material.....to pomeni tudi kamena moka.Le ta ima pri nižjih hitrostih(predvidevam,da je tam omejitev 50km/h ali manj)boljši količnik zaviranja,saj nanj izključno deluje mikrohrapavost.Torej,ni nujno,da je asfalt že na pogled HRAPAV,pomembna je sestava!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SiR]

Torej, revija Motorrad je v Nemčiji zbrala 22.000 podpisov motoristov in opozorila na 700 nevarnih točk na cestah. Podpise so predali prometnemu ministru.

Več o tem tukaj (šprehnzidajč? Poročilo

[SiR]

Več o tem tukaj (šprehnzidajč? Poročilo

ups

http://www.motorradonline.de/d/121241?_rub...l=%2Fmrd%2Fhome

[Zok]

Ta gladek drek ki ga polozijo,se z leti zvozi in postane kot spegu.Na taki cesti lahko motor nagnes ne samo do kolena ali tacke,ampak drsas kar po oklepu in kombinezunu!

:ph34r:

pejd mal v center Rogaske Slatine pogledat. ena kur*eva 125ka (konkretno moja, lahk pa tud od mojga best frenda, k ma se 10 konjev majn) ti koplje celo prvo in drugo prestavo, saltas v tretjo, pa te povprek obrne - tak se na normalnem mokrem asfaltu ne dela!!! :blink: :angry: ka bi blo, ce bi mel hayabuso al pa 12ko ninjo?!?

[Zok]

aja, se to - vsaka cesta bi mogla bit tak narjena, da bi se dala brez posebnega pretiravanja zvozit z dvakratno hitrostjo od omejitve. tak pa ponavadi je, pol pa prides do kakega odseka, ko pa ni, si pa mrtev. :ph34r:

[Natas]

Zok,ne rabis GSX-1300R niti ZX-12,da se guma obrne v prazno na gladkem (boh ne dej da je se moker in/ali svinjski) asfaltu,ko samo pipnes gas.Obratno gledano,pa je srekiranje (kontroliran zdrs zadnje gume) zame eden vecjih uzitkov na cesti.

Skrajni cas bi ze bil,da se tudi pri nas zacne gonja proti bitumnu :angry: ,svinjalcem cest :angry: ,nekakovostnem asfaltu :angry: ...

Ne govorim da morajo biti ceste take kot na dirkaliscu,da bomo ja brusili tacke in strgali robove gum na vseh ovinkih.Rad bi samo,da so NORMALNE.Je to prevec?

Vsi v boj!To je puc!Juriiis! :D

:ph34r:

[marem]

Jeba bitumna je, da glede na temperaturo menja svoje lastnosti. Kar pomeni, da je trd kot beton če je mrzlo in mehak kot čugumi pri visokih(poletnih(za nas bistvenih))temperaturah. Nikakor se ne moreš navaditi nanj, saj se s tem spreminjajo vozne lastnosti....Kolikor sem slišal pa bitumen sčasoma (leti) otrdi. :blink:

[Zoolo]

aja, se to - vsaka cesta bi mogla bit tak narjena, da bi se dala brez posebnega pretiravanja zvozit z dvakratno hitrostjo od omejitve. tak pa ponavadi je, pol pa prides do kakega odseka, ko pa ni, si pa mrtev. :ph34r:

Zok, pa kaj ti misliš da cestarji in ne vem kdo postavlja table z omejitvami zato, da si potem vsak sam naračuna dvakratno hitrost in ga lahko žge po civilnih cestah?

@Sym: Po dolgem času dobra tema, dobri komentarji, .... jap OMEJITVE dragi moji OMEJITVE so bistvo. Tako bom rekel, nikoli še nisem bil v Piz** in imel tistega feelinga, da se bom razlepu na zalivki na pofrezani cesti, na ...., heh če sem vozil vsaj blizu omejitve. Z oddaljevanjem od le te se verjetnost usodnega srečanja s takšno ali drugačno podlago močno poveča.

@Klimbra: heh nice strokovne razlage, ... ampak stari moj dejstvo je današe pofrezane fogle lahko človek odpelje samo s 70% hitrosti tiste, ki jo tolerirajo pofrezani ovinki v "Lepi njihovi", ... a je odvisno od globine in vzorca, ki ga naredi freza mi pa ni čist jasno ampak verjetno da ja.

OK, bottom line, bitumen sucks, freze tut, .... Opozorilne table bi bile več kot dobrodošle, ... ampak kar sta po mojem največja problema so neurejene bankine in ceste polne zemlje oz. peska, ter odseki cest predvsem v mestih, kjer je asfalt zaradi starosti dejansko postal špegu. Kaj delajo komunalci in ostali, da so bankine lahko takšne kot so (beri nasut neutrjen pesek, ki ga vsakdo ki samo malo čez rob zapelje nameče na cestišče)? A za cestišča nimamo nobenega standarda, ki bi predpisoval minimalno oprijemljivost cestišča, oz. kdaj je potrebno znucan asfalt zamenjati?

Popravljeno Avgust 1, 2003. Popravil Zoolo

[HHV]

OK, bottom line, bitumen sucks, freze tut, .... Opozorilne table bi bile več kot dobrodošle, ... ampak kar sta po mojem največja problema so neurejene bankine in ceste polne zemlje oz. peska, ter odseki cest predvsem v mestih, kjer je asfalt zaradi starosti dejansko postal špegu. Kaj delajo komunalci in ostali, da so bankine lahko takšne kot so (beri nasut neutrjen pesek, ki ga vsakdo ki samo malo čez rob zapelje nameče na cestišče)? A za cestišča nimamo nobenega standarda, ki bi predpisoval minimalno oprijemljivost cestišča, oz. kdaj je potrebno znucan asfalt zamenjati?

Evo, bravo horrible man, tole je bistvo!

1 - Najprej je treba vedeti standarde......, zakonodajo na tem področju...., pa še kaj verjetno....

2 - Potem je potrebno pobrati stanje na cesti. Ampak dokazljivo in ažurno! Nekje v forumu napisat, da je tam pa usrana cesta, potem pa pozabit.... to ne gre. Nekje je potrebno zbirat dokaze in jih dokaj hitro posredovat tistim, ki so odgovorni. Zadeve arhivirat, če se tam kaj zgodi, obstajajo dokazi, da upravljalec cest, oz. policija (komur bi se pač javljalo) niso opravili svoje.

3 - Sledijo lahko odškodninske tožbe.

Problemi ad 1: Kdo ima voljo, kdo pozna zadeve, kdo nam bo to posredoval??

Problemi ad 2: Kdo bo pobiral podatke na cesti, kdo bo to sprejemal, kdo posredoval naprej in zadevi dal težo?

Problemi ad 3: Teh pa v bistvu ni. S pomočjo rešitev prvih dveh točk, bi vsakdo lahko in lažje uveljavljal odškodnine.

Sanje malega Peteršilčka: Če bi to lavfalo, bi se upravitelji cest bolj trudili držati stanje cest kot je treba, saj bi bilo sicer za njih predrago.

Torej: Kdo se javi????

:( :( :( :blink:

[MaraudeR]

Bitumen replacement: come and get it

10 January 1998

Use of a new Austrian road repair product could prevent hundreds ofmotorcycle accidents per year and save many lives. FEMA is bringing it tothe attention of the motorcycle world so that local authorities can bepersuaded to use it instead of the super-slippery bitumen which iscurrently used widely throughout the world.

Developed in Austria and investigated by MAG Upper Austria, it is cheaperto buy and use than bitumen, but most importantly it provides the same gripfor tyres as normal asphalt.

Enquiries from local authorities should be directed in the first instanceto the producer.

Please find a MAG report below, kindly translated by Herbert Pieper and BobTomlins.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Road seam repairs with bitumen can mean for motorcyclists slippery iceconditions in summer

We call for more safety for motorcyclists on Austria's streets

MAG

MOTORCYLE ACTION GROUP

AUSTRIA

BITUMEN

Is often used for road repairs. In the handbooks for the repairing ofasphalt surfaces the use of Bitumen is recommended for only limited damage,such as seam damage, cracks and joins between sections. However repairswith bitumen are often carried out on larger areas.

The smooth or the polished bitumen surface is sometimes roughened withgravel or broken stone in order to correct the slipperyness of the bitumen.However, the long-term effectiveness of this surface is limited and theroad surface soon loses its abrasiveness because of high stress and wear.Road repairs using bitumen are regarded as an intermediate solution.

Bitumen has a very low adhesive value which moreover depends strongly onthe weather. Both the maximum frictional connection coefficient and theglide coefficient on Bitumen is about one third of the "normal" asphaltsurface. Wet bitumen has a friction value which is comparable with the"slipperyness" of ice.

Also at higher temperatures, the friction is small as investigations showedon roads with bitumen repairs. Already at 23 degrees C of outsidetemperature, the material is easily deformed with small effort. Hightemperatures create a similar problem as when the surface is wet".

This means in the practise that:

The rider's maximum angle of lean of 45 degrees is reduced toapproximately 15 degrees.

At the same time there is a higher risk of falling while turning andbraking.

For a straight braking the distance required increases 2 or 3-fold. Thiseffect is also seen on machines with ABS systems. By reduced frictionalcontact while on a bitumen surface the braked wheel can lock. A lockedfront wheel loses its direction and its stabilizing influence with a highliklihood of the machine falling.

A sudden change in the surface adhesion directly effects amotorcycle leaned over in a curve, outside of the control of the rider.This results in the liklihood of the rider falling off and possibly acollision with oncoming traffic.

Source: Institute for Motorcycle Safety, Essen (Institut fur Zweiradsicherheit, Essen)

1st picture:One finds many large areas of bitumen repairs which are extremely dangerousfor Motorcyclists.

2nd picture:Bitumen can be deformed by traffic use and heat without great effort!

More safety on Austria's streets for motorcyclists

An initiative of the Motorcycle Action Group Chapter of Upper Austria

On 04.11.1997 we built a test track on on the Weichstettner Bezirksstrasse,together with the company STO and according to agreement with the UpperAustria government, Mr. Ing. Reisenbichler. 160 metre cracks were repairedwith the traditional "Fugenplus" by the firm Vialit Braunau and 160 metresby the firm STO cracks with "STO Flex APS".

MAG believes that "STO Flex APS" is an alternative product to Bitumen.

In June 1996 there was a meeting with Mr. Hochmair, a member of the UpperAustria government, at which 9.028 signatures, collected in all of Austriaand calling for a change in repair methods, was presented.

In April 1997 the official product presentation at the firm STO Traunfollowed, and Mr Ing. Ritzal, Economy Department Vienna, Mr Ing.Reisenbichler, central government O.OE., Mr Ing Hintringer, testinginstitution O.O central government, as well as representatives of the roadmanufacturers were present. At the beginning the material was presented byvideofilm and then the practical work carrying out was demonstrated.

The new product

Test report no.: bau S-V/12.606-97/Hiw/wie

d The product is solvent-free as well as free from pollutants and therefore

environmental friendly.d Can be cleaned with water (no detergents)d Repairs up to 100 metre can be carried out at any time, withoutexpenditure to rigs, only with hands

3rd pictures: grinding heart, see test report

One must consider that "STO Felx APS" is elastic and fills the seamscompletely. This material has greater surface adhesion and resembles the roughness ofthe asphalt coating.

This improves the safety of the motorcyclist and helps to avoid accidentswhere people can be hurt or killed.

contact:

Motorrad - Aktions - GruppeLandesstelle fur OberosterreichFreiung 9A

4720 Neumarkt/H.Telefon: 07733 / 81 31Telefax: 07733 / 81 47

http://www.mag-uk.org/fema/pr/bitumen_9-jan-1997.html

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Non-slip road repairs

A new road repair compound called STO Flex APS is now available globally through an established distribution network. Designed to be used instead of slippery black bitumen, it has a friction coefficientthe same as normal tarmac and is cheaper to use than bitumen.

News of the product last year brought interested enquiries from motorcycle groups worldwide, eager to promote it locally thereby cutting the number of motorcycle accidents.

Technical and practical information in German, English andFrench is available from the producer.

"Ice rink road repairs" shall be an issue at the Euro Demo in Bonn on 29 August where 20-30,000 riders are exepcted to take to the streets in support of biker-friendly legislation.

In problem areas, FEMA recommends local pressure on administrations to start using the product.

STO Flex APS enquiries should be directed to the address at the end of this message.

There follows a presentation by MAG Austria.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More safety for motorcyclists on Austria's streets by Edwin Hofbauer, Vienna, 29th April 1998

MAG - MOTORCYLE ACTION GROUP AUSTRIA

ICE IN SUMMER

Road seam repairs with Bitumen can mean for motorcyclists slippery ice conditions in summer.Developed in Austria as an initiative by the Motorcycle Action Group Chapter of Upper Austria, use of a new road repair product could prevent hundreds of motorcycle accidents per year, and save many lives.

THE CURRENT SITUATION

BITUMEN (e.g. Fugenplus) is commonly used for road repairs. In the handbooks for the repairing of asphalt surfaces the use ofBitumen is recommended for only limited damage under 5cm width,such as seam damage, cracks and joins between sections. Howeverrepairs with Bitumen are often carried out on larger areas, such as pot holes and cracks much wider than 5cm.

Bitumen has a very low adhesive value which moreover depends strongly on the weather. Under wet conditions, both the maximum Coefficientof Static Friction, and the Coefficient of SlidingFriction on Bitumen is about one third of conventional asphaltsurface. Wet Bitumen has a friction value which is comparablewith the "slipperyness" of ice.

Also at higher temperatures, the friction is small as investigations showed on roads with Bitumen repairs. Already at23 degrees C of outside temperature, the material is easilydeformed with small effort. Under such conditions, it can bedrawn off like cello tape. High temperatures create a similar problem as when the surface is wet.

This means in the practise that the rider's maximum angle of lean can be reduced from e.g. 45 degrees to approximately 15degrees. At the same time there is a higher risk of falling while turningand braking. For a straight braking the distance required increases 2 or 3-fold. This effect is also seen on machines with ABS systems. By reduced frictional contact whileon a Bitumen surface the braked wheel can lock. A locked frontwheel loses its direction and its stabilizing influence with a high likelihood of the machine falling. A sudden change in the surface adhesion directly effects a motorcycle leaned over in a curve, outside of the control of the rider. This results in the likelihoodof the rider falling off and possibly a collision with oncoming traffic, ora collision with the dangerous crash barrierposts.

Source: Institute for Motorcycle Safety (IfZ, Institut fur Zweiradsicherheit, Essen)

The smooth or the polished Bitumen surface is sometimes roughened with gravel or broken stone in order to correct the slipperynessof the Bitumen.

However, the long-term effectiveness of this surface is limited and the road surface soon loses its abrasiveness because of high stress and wear. The gravel is usually rolled into the Bitumen surface by heavy vehicles. At the same volume amount, theBitumen grows out of the surface, causing steps along the line of the riders travel. Riding along a Bitumen repair strip always is an interference on the on stability and 'feel' of a motorcycle. Such repairs are often not straight, and the effect of friction variationsplus the steps can be very disconcerting for motorcyclists, especially in wet weather (more effect) and in darkness (rider cannot see the cause of any wobbles).

Road repairs using Bitumen are regarded as an intermediate solution. Although there is a demand for a durability of 3 years for road repairs in the RVS (Richtlinien und Verordnungen fur denStrassenbau Directives for road maintenance), Bitumen does not meet these requirements. Road markings on Bitumen have almost zeroadhesion and thus disappear after a few weeks only.

STO Flex APS, THE NEW ALTERNATIVE

The first investigations with alternative materials started in November 1994. In June 1996 there was a meeting with Mr. Hochmair, Vice chef of the Upper Austria government, at which 9.028 signatures, collected in all of Austria and calling for a change in repair methods, was presented.

In April 1997 the official product presentation at the firm STO Traun followed, and Mr Ing. Ritzal, Austrian Ministry for Economic Affairs, Mr Ing. Reisenbichler, province government Upper Austria., Mr Ing Hintringer, testing institution, province governmentUpper Austria, as well as representatives of the road manufacturers werepresent. At the beginning the material was presented by videofilm and then the practical work carrying out was demonstrated. Also in April1997 MAG initiated to built a test track on on the Weichstettner Bezirksstrasse, together with the company STO and according to agreement with the Upper Austria government, Mr. Ing. Reisenbichler. A test track of 160 metre cracks were repaired with the conventional bitomen material "Fugenplus" by the firm Vialit Braunau and 160 metres cracks by the firm STO with "STO Flex APS".

All tests and grinding hearts showed the clear superiority ofSTO Flex APS over all other repair materials.

This material has greater surface adhesion and resembles the roughness of the asphalt coating, also in the wet. This improves the safety of the motorcyclist and helps to avoid accidents where people can be hurt or killed.

The new process provides very effectfully that those repair strips are egalized, i.e. not higher than the surrounding asphalt layer. So it is without importance wether the strips are straightor not, or if they are carried out as a fishnet pattern or as big areas. Anyway the coefficient of friction is equal.

Long term tests have so far shown a durability of 2-4 years on test tracks in the districts of Kremsmuenster, Wels, Freistadt BS and Linz-Land. The repairs are still in good conditions.

Road markings have a better adhesion than on tarmac, let alone on Bitumen.

The product is solvent-free as well as free from pollutants and therefore environmental friendly.

Devices and tools can be cleaned with water (no detergents)

Repairs up to 100 metre can be carried out at any time, without expenditure to rigs, only with hands

STO Felx APS" is elastic and fills the seams completely.

The machines to process STO Flex APS are the same as for wall plastering, with only a few modifications on the jet.

The demand for manpower, time, machinery and energy is considerably lower than for Bitumen.

MAG believes that apart from a new tarmac layer, repairs with "STO Flex APS" currently are the only reasonable alternative for safe road construction!

FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT:MAG-Motorrad-AktionsGruppecontact: Ms Romana Schoergendorfer (german only)Landesstelle OberoesterreichFreiung 9A - 4720 Neumarkt/H.Telefon: 07733 / 81 31Telefax: 07733 / 81 47Material Manufacturer:contact: Mr Alois Mauhart(german by phone; fax also in english)Firma STO GmbHGewerbepark 7A - 4063 PaschingTelefon: 07229 / 64 100Telefax: 07229 / 64 10 22or MAG Austria Chairman Edwin Hofbauer,Tel 0043-1-817 68 71 or +43-1-1707 22793;Fax +43 1 1707 53560

http://www.mag-uk.org/fema/pr/road_rep_8-may-1998.html

Popravljeno Avgust 1, 2003. Popravil MaraudeR

[gaberkosir]

nehajte se prickat!

nemci ze vedo zakaj zbirajo podpise. najbrz so dokazali da toliko in toliko motoristov na leto umre zaradi bitumna. morate pa vedeti, da je v nemciji 300000 motoristov in da bodo oni mogoce kaj dosegli, mi pa bolj tezko. 300000 glasov za enega politika, ki se bo za to zavzel je pa ze lepa cifra.

[hotschko]

Problemi ad 1: Kdo ima voljo, kdo pozna zadeve, kdo nam bo to posredoval??

MAkSi ?

[klimbra]

@Zoollooo........razlika frezanje v "Deželi" je 100%frezanje,V "Lepi njihovi" pa je to vtiskanje ali reljefni vzorec in to v obmorskih krajih(notranjost tega ne dopušča,ker je uporabljen mehkejši bitumen)..........kjer se uporablja trši bitumen.Na mehkem bitumnu ta šport nebi imel nobenega haska,saj bi se zlizal,da si rekel ke....khm......se.......khm.......keks. :P :D ;)

BTW.....kjer je pofrezano.....se pač peljemo 70%!!!!!!

BTW2...kolkr dnarja za vzdrževanje tok muzike!!!!!!!!

BTW3...zgolj v informacijo.......1tolar,ki ga država ne da za vzdrževanje......nas uporabnike stane 3!!!!!!!!(pa ne me zdej kako so doktorji to zračunal.....so nekak)

[HHV]

Problemi ad 1: Kdo ima voljo, kdo pozna zadeve, kdo nam bo to posredoval??

MAkSi ?

NE, Maksiju, za Maksi (za vse nas), z Maksijem!!!