J.R.R. Tolkien in vse o Ardi

April 10, 2003

Ejga Ein, to moraš vzet bolj Middle-earthovsko: tako kot Aragorna ni nič motilo da je Arwen 2690 let starejša od njega (+ ali - par mesecev :wink: ), se tudi midva ne bova dala motiti :wink: :lol: !!! Najbrž se lahko strinjaš s tem, kajne...

:?:

April 10, 2003

tako kot Aragorna ni nič motilo da je Arwen 2690 let starejša od njega

Pa sem mislil, da samo mene privlačijo malce starejše ženske :lol: :lol: AMPAK NE TOLIKO STAREJŠE! (Ampak Liv Tyler se pa človek res ne bi branil...) :P

April 10, 2003

Hja, res ji je treba priznat, da za svoja leta kar dobro izgleda :wink: ... Verjamem, da se je ne bi branil ampak (zgolj v vednost in ravnanje), tle je že vrsta in jest sem pred tabo :roll: :wink: :lol:

No, najbolj žalostna plat cele zadeve pa je, da je ubožica umrla leta IV 121 po uničenju The Ringa in odhodu Galadriel, Celeborna in ostalih Galadhrimov na zapuščenem in razpadajočem Cerin Amrothu, stara (mlada?) komaj 2910 let, kamor je odšla umret le nekaj mesecev po smrti svojega Aragorna (ki je dočakal kot potomec Numenorcev danes spoštljivih 210 let). OK, otrok raje ne bom omenjal... tko da... sva oba zvisela kot lustra :(

Ah ja, tele Elfinje :oops: :wink:

April 11, 2003

Hja, res ji je treba priznat, da za svoja leta kar dobro izgleda :wink: ... Verjamem, da se je ne bi branil ampak (zgolj v vednost in ravnanje), tle je že vrsta in jest sem pred tabo :roll: :wink: :lol:

No, najbolj žalostna plat cele zadeve pa je, da je ubožica umrla leta IV 121 po uničenju The Ringa in odhodu Galadriel, Celeborna in ostalih Galadhrimov na zapuščenem in razpadajočem Cerin Amrothu, stara (mlada?) komaj 2910 let, kamor je odšla umret le nekaj mesecev po smrti svojega Aragorna (ki je dočakal kot potomec Numenorcev danes spoštljivih 210 let). OK, otrok raje ne bom omenjal... tko da... sva oba zvisela kot lustra :(

Ah ja, tele Elfinje :oops: :wink:

Kaj pa anali pravijo o kakih lustnih hcerkah???

April 11, 2003

Kaj pa anali pravijo o kakih lustnih hcerkah???

Ali luštnih sinovih???

April 11, 2003

Luštnih hčerkah??? Hehe, vse Elfinje so ble mega luštne (ah, tista ušesca... :oops: ), od hčerk do mam, babic in prababic itd, brez izjeme - že a priori oz po defaultu, zaradi svoje rase... se pa hitro zmedeš če nisi pazljiv zaradi njihove nesmrtnosti... hm, le kaj v takem primeru pomeni razlika 3000 let (povprečna dolžina ene Dobe pri JRRTju!)??? Težko oceniti... Vsaka mama je bila seveda nekoč hčerka: npr Arwen je vnukinja od Galadriel (njena hčerka Celebrian se je poročila z Elrondom)... In tako...

Je pa res, da je bilo v celi zgodovini Middle-eartha nekaj "extra mega" luštnih Elfinj, na prvem mestu seveda Luthien (po starših pol Elfinja, pol Maia), takoj za njo pa Arwen, ki naj bi ji bila čisto podobna... So pa tu seveda še Idril Celebrindal , pa Finduillas, na vsak način pa tudi Galadriel, ki je bila kao "ženski Feanor" - najmogočnejša Elfinja vseh časov: luštna, pametna, odlična v borbi, močna in postavna (menda je imela "moško višino" => 190 cm(!) oz originalno 6"4') - definitivno smrtonosna kombinacija :wink: :? 8)

Aja, Arwen, je imela tudi svoje otročičke, (pazi Mačica!) sina Eldariona (ki je leta IV 120 nasledil očeta Aragorna) in cel kup hčera (brez imen - hja, saj veš, nekoč so bili pomembni samo sinovi; danes že vemo, da temu ni tako :wink: ).

April 11, 2003

Ampak ker je Arwen res nekaj posebnega :oops: , evo malo podrobnejši opis njenega življenja:

Arwen – Noble maiden

Ar(a) – high, noble, royal

-wen – maiden

Elelome – Evenstar

Arwen Undomiel

Other names: Evenstar, Lady of Rivendell, Undomiel, Elelome

Date of birth: TA 241

Race: Half-elven

Date of death: FO 121

Parents: Elrond, Celebrian

Spouse: Aragorn

Date of marriage: TA 3019

Children: Eldarion, several daughters

Arwen was born in the year TA 241, as the last child of Elrond Peredhel and Celebrian, daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn. Her full name consisted of three names. Arwen, her chosen name, Undomiel a privately given mother name and a name given to her by Galadriel. Galadriel gave her the name Elelome, which means Evenstar, because of her likeness to Luthien Tinuviel, who was declared the morning star of her people. Arwen should be the evening star of hers, the last glory before the elves should fade.

After her mother had passed on to Valinor in the west, Arwen spent many years in Lothlorien with Galadriel and Celeborn, her grandparents. It was there that she first met Aragorn, who at that time went by the name of Estel which means hope. Aragorn, who had just reached the age of twenty, fell in love with her almost immediately. But she did not return his feelings. Elrond saw Aragorns love for Arwen in his eyes and spoke with him. Aragorn should not get Arwens hand until he was the king of Gondor and Arnor, and only then if Arwen was willing.

Rumors of strange and dread deeds were spreading across the lands of Rohan and Gondor. It seemed that a captain of Gondor, who was called Thorongil was the mightiest they had ever had. He was invincible in battle, according to the rumors. But it is not likely that Arwen ever heard any of these. Arwen was happy, but every now and then a thought crossed her mind. Had she treated Aragorn unfair? He could not be blamed for loving her even though he was a moral man.

The day came, that would change her life forever. Aragorn, not knowing that she was there, came to Lorien. When she found him, she knew that she loved him. And why she loved him, only she knew. Arwen and Aragorn plighted their troth on a midsummer night on the hill of Cerin Amroth. Arwen was happy, yet her heart was torn. She would be parted from her people forever. But not even the knowledge of never seeing her mother again could stop her from loving Aragorn.

Soon Aragorn had to leave for Rivendell. On the edge of the stream of Nimrodel they said farewell. It was then that Aragorn gave her the ring of Barahir, as old as Beren and Luthien. Knowing what it meant she accepted it. And as her token she gave him a flower of elanor.

When the Fellowship of the Ring set out, Arwen said goodbye to Aragorn early in the morning. As the company moved on she felt her heart breaking. Elrond could not watch them part, for he could not bear seeing his daughter in such pain. From this moment on, Arwen knew her doom.

After waiting for a long time, the Ring was finally destroyed, and Aragorn was king of Gondor. Soon after that Arwen, Elrond and most of the elves of Rivendell departed for Gondor where Aragorn wedded Arwen Undomiel in Minas Tirith on the day of Midsummer. But through all the happiness, Arwen was grieved. She knew that soon she would bid farewell to her father for the last time. In Edoras she spoke to him the last time and remained hidden as they rode away. For she was not able to bear the sight of her father riding into the distance.

They lived very happy. Arwen had almost forgotten that one day Aragorn must die. It came unexpected to her when Aragorn proclaimed the coronation of their son Eldarion and told her that his time on earth was over. She begged him to stay, but at last she let him go. He died holding her hand.

Unable to be without Aragorn she bid farewell to her children and wandered to, the now faded, lands of Lorien. She stayed there for a while and when the winter came she put herself to rest on Cerin Amroth. And Arwen Undomiel, Evenstar of her people, passed away from the earth forever.

April 11, 2003

Hej, sam če so tako dolgo živeli, kako dolgo pa so elfi odraščali? 1000, 2000 let? Ko 20 ziher niso mogli.

April 11, 2003

Heh, Maca... :roll: :wink: ...

Pri opisih Elfov v več knjigah piše (vsaj implicitno če ne eksplicitno) da so odraščali čisto enako kot "navadni" ljudje, le starost se jih nikakor ni "prijela". V Unfinished Tales pa lahko preberemo zelo podrobno razlago kako je s tem pri Numenorcih (in nekaj primerjav z Elfi).

Za ljudi velja (npr Numenorce in kot njihovega potomca tudi za Aragorna) da niso umrli kot starci ampak v "najboljših letih": ko je npr kralj začutil, da se mu bliža starost je vedel, da ima pred seboj le še nekaj let življenje, pa še tega kot bolj ali manj senilni starec, zato so takrat predali prestol sinu, sami pa so se "odločili" dostojanstveno umreti preden jih to zares doleti. Točno tako je naredil tudi Aragorn... Mislim, da je bila samo ena izjema, en kralj/reva (vpliv Saurona) tik pred uničenjem Numenorja.

Ko so imeli Elfi vsega poln kufer pa so se spokali na barčico in odšli na Zahod, kjer so živeli naprej s svojimi bogovi... (razen tistih ki so jih prej ubili ali če niso umrli od žalosti - v tem primeru so šle njihove duše k Mandosu).

April 11, 2003

Ampak ker je Arwen res nekaj posebnega :oops: , evo malo podrobnejši opis njenega življenja:

Arwen – Noble maiden

Ar(a) – high, noble, royal

-wen – maiden

Elelome – Evenstar

Arwen Undomiel

Other names: Evenstar, Lady of Rivendell, Undomiel, Elelome

Date of birth: TA 241

Race: Half-elven

Date of death: FO 121

Parents: Elrond, Celebrian

Spouse: Aragorn

Date of marriage: TA 3019

Children: Eldarion, several daughters

Arwen was born in the year TA 241, as the last child of Elrond Peredhel and Celebrian, daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn. Her full name consisted of three names. Arwen, her chosen name, Undomiel a privately given mother name and a name given to her by Galadriel. Galadriel gave her the name Elelome, which means Evenstar, because of her likeness to Luthien Tinuviel, who was declared the morning star of her people. Arwen should be the evening star of hers, the last glory before the elves should fade.

After her mother had passed on to Valinor in the west, Arwen spent many years in Lothlorien with Galadriel and Celeborn, her grandparents. It was there that she first met Aragorn, who at that time went by the name of Estel which means hope. Aragorn, who had just reached the age of twenty, fell in love with her almost immediately. But she did not return his feelings. Elrond saw Aragorns love for Arwen in his eyes and spoke with him. Aragorn should not get Arwens hand until he was the king of Gondor and Arnor, and only then if Arwen was willing.

Rumors of strange and dread deeds were spreading across the lands of Rohan and Gondor. It seemed that a captain of Gondor, who was called Thorongil was the mightiest they had ever had. He was invincible in battle, according to the rumors. But it is not likely that Arwen ever heard any of these. Arwen was happy, but every now and then a thought crossed her mind. Had she treated Aragorn unfair? He could not be blamed for loving her even though he was a moral man.

The day came, that would change her life forever. Aragorn, not knowing that she was there, came to Lorien. When she found him, she knew that she loved him. And why she loved him, only she knew. Arwen and Aragorn plighted their troth on a midsummer night on the hill of Cerin Amroth. Arwen was happy, yet her heart was torn. She would be parted from her people forever. But not even the knowledge of never seeing her mother again could stop her from loving Aragorn.

Soon Aragorn had to leave for Rivendell. On the edge of the stream of Nimrodel they said farewell. It was then that Aragorn gave her the ring of Barahir, as old as Beren and Luthien. Knowing what it meant she accepted it. And as her token she gave him a flower of elanor.

When the Fellowship of the Ring set out, Arwen said goodbye to Aragorn early in the morning. As the company moved on she felt her heart breaking. Elrond could not watch them part, for he could not bear seeing his daughter in such pain. From this moment on, Arwen knew her doom.

After waiting for a long time, the Ring was finally destroyed, and Aragorn was king of Gondor. Soon after that Arwen, Elrond and most of the elves of Rivendell departed for Gondor where Aragorn wedded Arwen Undomiel in Minas Tirith on the day of Midsummer. But through all the happiness, Arwen was grieved. She knew that soon she would bid farewell to her father for the last time. In Edoras she spoke to him the last time and remained hidden as they rode away. For she was not able to bear the sight of her father riding into the distance.

They lived very happy. Arwen had almost forgotten that one day Aragorn must die. It came unexpected to her when Aragorn proclaimed the coronation of their son Eldarion and told her that his time on earth was over. She begged him to stay, but at last she let him go. He died holding her hand.

Unable to be without Aragorn she bid farewell to her children and wandered to, the now faded, lands of Lorien. She stayed there for a while and when the winter came she put herself to rest on Cerin Amroth. And Arwen Undomiel, Evenstar of her people, passed away from the earth forever.

....lepo....

April 12, 2003

Hja, res ji je treba priznat, da za svoja leta kar dobro izgleda :wink: ... Verjamem, da se je ne bi branil ampak (zgolj v vednost in ravnanje), tle je že vrsta in jest sem pred tabo :roll: :wink: :lol:

No, najbolj žalostna plat cele zadeve pa je, da je ubožica umrla leta IV 121 po uničenju The Ringa in odhodu Galadriel, Celeborna in ostalih Galadhrimov na zapuščenem in razpadajočem Cerin Amrothu, stara (mlada?) komaj 2910 let, kamor je odšla umret le nekaj mesecev po smrti svojega Aragorna (ki je dočakal kot potomec Numenorcev danes spoštljivih 210 let). OK, otrok raje ne bom omenjal... tko da... sva oba zvisela kot lustra :(

Ah ja, tele Elfinje :oops: :wink:

:shock: Kje pa piše tole o smrti Aragorna in Arwen? A so to Unfinished Tales?

Mene je kar malo potrlo... :cry:

April 13, 2003

:shock: Kje pa piše tole o smrti Aragorna in Arwen? A so to Unfinished Tales?

Mene je kar malo potrlo... :cry:

A ni celotna zgodba o Arwen in Aragornu v Appendix-u h Gospodarju prstanov?

April 13, 2003

Bravo Maca, tokrat si se izkazala: zaključek zgodbe o Arwen in Aragornu je res v LotRu, Appendix A, (V), "Here follows a part of the tale of Aragorn and Arwen", str. 1094 - 1101 (Unwin paperback edition).

April 13, 2003

...
Mene je kar malo potrlo... :cry:

Ja, popolnoma ti verjamem - tudi mene je ko sem to prvič prebral :oops: :(

Pa tako enostavno bi se dalo rešiti celo zadevo v veselje in radost vseh! Dejstvo je, da je imela Arwen čas da si izbere pripadnost rasi (človeški al Elfski) do takrat, ko bodo njen oče, Galadriel in ostali Galadhrimi odpluli na Zahod. OK, ni blema - to bi Arwen lahko rešila npr takole:

- se odloči, da ostane Elfinja (pravzaprav Half-Elf - po očetu, Elrondu, ampak to tu ni bistveno, pravice ima v tem primeru enake)

- se dogovori s svojo familijo (Elrond in Galadriel - ostali morajo itaq ubogat svoje modro vodstvo :wink: ), da do Aragornove smrti ("samo" 130 let) vsi počakajo oz živijo kot dosedaj še naprej v Middle-earthu (čeprav je začel Lothlorien počasi propadati ker je Nenya izgubila moč - a to ne bi smelo biti preveč težko njenim najbližjim, saj je alternativa Arwenina smrt, kajne!!!)

- se nato oženi z Aragornom in vlada Gondorju, uživa, jaha, ima otroke (al pa vsaj dela na tem :wink: )

- ko Aragorn umre, vsi Elfi spokajo in odplujejo v Aman :arrow: ergo vsi srečni, vsi zadovoljni, Arwen nikoli ne mrčka ampak živi naprej v Amanu :oops: 8)

- nepričakovan bonus: tudi njuni otroci bi imeli (zaradi Arwen) izbiro ali bodo Elfi ali ljudje :shock: :lol: 8)

April 13, 2003

:oops: Se vidi, da sem bral slovenski prevod LotR-ja. Pa tudi ne vem ali to v slovenščini piše v dodatku ali ne... v glavnem, imam doma knjigo v angleščini in sem se že zdavnaj odločil, da jo preberem v originalu. V slovenščini sploh ni uredu... izgubi 75% čara.

April 14, 2003

Hja Mustang, se strinjam s tvojo ugotovitvijo da se bolj ne bi mogel :o :lol: . Na srečo bo tvoja "kazen" prav primerno vzgojna :o :wink: :lol: ...

April 15, 2003

Eno vprašanje: včeraj sem videla, da imajo v knjižnici Lost Tales, 2.del. A se mi to splača prebrat, če nisem prej prvega dela? No sicer pa do takrat ko bom jaz prebrala "The Elegant Universe" (spet), bom že kje prvi del izvohala. In vse ostalo .... Zakaj mam tolk mal časa :?: :roll:

April 15, 2003

Pozdravljena LuCy,

Načeloma ni NUJNO da bereš te knjige po vrsti, je pa priporočljivo, ker se (večina) nadaljujejo oz navezujejo na prejšnje iz iste zbirke.

Bolj važno oz jest bi rekel kar OBVEZNO je, da prej prebereš Silmarillion, ki je IMHO "kamen temeljac" (lep slovenski izraz :wink: ) za razumevanje in spoznavanje Middle-eartha.

Kakšen pristop torej predlagam k spoznavanju Middle-eartha? Evo takole:

- LotR (pazi - VKLJUČNO z Appendixi: predstavitev vseh ras, who is who, Tale of the Years...)

- The Hobbit, ki je bolj otroška pravljica (tale je neobvezna, samo po želji)

- The Silmarillion (obvezno!!!)

--------------------------------- tu je nekakšna meja

- The Unfinished Tales

- The Lost Tales (oz serija The History of Middle-earth)

- The Letters of JRRT

- The Atlas of Middle Earth

- internetne strani o Middle-earthu, predvsem zemljevidi (najbolje original Tolkienovi, pa od Pauline Baynes)

Od vključno Silmarilliona naprej se mi zdi ZELO primerno (za lažje razumevanje, predvsem pa za manj listanja po treh ali več knjigah naenkrat :roll: ) še The Complete Guide to Middle-earth (Robert Foster, izdaja 2001).

"Normalno" branje JRRTjeve knjige potem izgleda takole: v roki imaš knjigo, ki jo bereš, na dosegu roke pa zemljevide in The Complete Guide (za reference krajev, imen, dogodkov...) :shock: :? :wink: 8) :lol: ...

Žal večine knjig iz te serije ni za dobit :cry: (v paperback izdaji). Bom moral spet v London, k Foylesu... (a mogoče kdo pozna koga, ki gre v London in bi mi hotel prinesti kakšno kjigo iz te serije? :oops: )

Tule pa še seznam vseh knjig iz serije The History of Middle-earth:

1. The Book of Lost Tales 1 (The History of Middle-Earth - Volume 1)

by J. R. R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (Editor)

2. The Book of Lost Tales 2 (The History of Middle-Earth - Volume 2)

by J. R. R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (Editor)

3. The Lays of Beleriand (The History of Middle-Earth - Volume 3)

by J. R. R. Tolkien

4. The Shaping of Middle-Earth (The History of Middle-Earth - Volume 4)

by J. R. R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien

5. The Lost Road and Other Writings (The History of Middle-Earth - Volume 5)

by J. R. R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien

6. The Return of the Shadow (The History of The Lord of the Rings, Part One) (The History of Middle-Earth - Volume 6)